वेदार्थनिर्णय: Veda-artha-nirNaya - determining the meanings of Veda - 2


वेदार्थनिर्णय: Veda-artha-nirNaya - determining the meanings of Veda - 2

This the rejoinder to the earlier writing on the same subject

The Veda since time immemorial followed a "karNa paramparaa" - means shravana, manana, punaruchaarana, paarayana, etc. -

[Even though one of the oldest Rig Veda Manuscript collections in Boorja patra (birch bark), estimated to be the oldest Manuscript in the world by scientists and accepted as the UNESCO treasure and estimated to be 2200 years old found in 1931 by the British in Gilgit Kashmir (PoK). Veda forever will be taught-learnt-and passed on through Guru-Shishya - Chanting-listening-Chanting method only. This is the only correct method of learning Veda. This Gilgit MSS collections contain Rig Veda in parts - some in Brahmi and some parts in Sharada scripts. It is to be kept in mind that Sanskrit as a language had no native script and so far we have over 70 scripts identified in which many Sanskrit works were written time to time and region to region]

The order of importance in determining meaning to a Vedic passage goes like this - First the Varna (phoneme) gets the importance, then Padam (word) and then Vaakyam (sentence). 

Here to understand the emphasis of a varna - we have shiksha shastra - this can't be written down in book form and understood. Here is where the "Svara" or tonal variations determine the meaning of the word. In Sanskrit we have 18 different "अ" 'Varnas' - based on Maatra (duration), Svara (Tone), Naasika (Nasalization) and their mix and match we get 18 different "अ-कार".

For example lets take the word "दक्षिणा" (dakshiNaa) - this word has 3 meanings 

1. Fees/ Donation /Reward /Offering (none of these words give the correct meaning - anyway you get it) to the Purohita
2. Southern direction
3. Intelligence (intuition) 

The word दक्षिणा has 3 aksharas -  द + क्षि + णा. Let us say High emphasis is called उदात्त and low emphasis is called अनुदात्त and normal is called as स्वरित - these 3 are the basic svara.

Now if the first syllable in this word gets emphasis (आद्य-उदात्त) - then this word means intelligence,
If it is second /middle syllable gets emphasis (मध्य-उदात्त) then it is South
and if the last syllable gets emphasis it is (अन्त्य-उदात्त) - then the meaning is fees to Prohita.

The same example can be given with English - but only at sentence level. For example if someone says the following:

"You are coming" - this sentence has only one meaning. Now add a Question mark at the end then the meaning of the sentence changes

"You are coming?" - Still the correct meaning is not understood, because 'where to' emphasize is missing in the written form - whether on Subject or Verb or Object. If I write the following way you will be able understand

" 'You' are coming?" - here the word "you" get emphasis - thus this sentence could mean - You (the person) coming or somebody else coming - this gives doubt about the actor's role.

Instead "You 'are' coming?" would mean - you are coming now or later or will you ever come, etc. here the doubt is about the time (tense).

Where as "You are 'coming'?" - in this - the action is questioned - such as whether the person will come or go or won't come at all, etc.

This kind of pronunciation based meaning changes we witness daily in every single occasion and we also constantly use.

Now imagine this kind of emphasis with in a 'word'  - where the syllables in a word get importance and as a result the word meanings change - every single word in Veda has svara

These svaras are not there in any written forms of Veda in any of old manuscripts. It came only through "PaaraayaNa paddhati".  Thus in the last century, the Westerners,  after finding out that whenever they translate Veda there were grave mistakes - they started putting markings for the Svara. This is called Svara notations. 

These notations are also not standardized because in one method there a small horizontal line above the akshara is marked to denote "udaatta" in another method the same is used to mark "anudaatta" - there were huge confusions on these things. Already there were confusions on transliteration markings standards - Kyoto-Harvard, Roman IAST, ISO 15919, ITRANS, ALA-LC, etc. Now added to these confusions the Svara markings.

Subsequently after computers and word processors came they started digitizing all these Sanskrit texts. Initially when PC computers came it had only 256 character length (8 bit) in ASCII codes - to encode Devanagari characters - people started creating notations. Then after unsuccessful attempts and problems they started using 16 bit long codes - then several other scripts like Chinese, Japanese, Greek, etc. have used up all the symbol spaces of 16 bit. Then there were a lot confusions in standardization till Unicode came into effect. Even now there were standard mismatch between Unicode, Unicode 16, INSCRIPT, ISCII, etc. Adding to this in between there were lot of graphic fonts came into play (not the True Type fonts) - and none had mutual compatibility.  Now we have some ASCII based devanagari script notations like WX, Velthuis, SLP1, etc. - yet none have Svara marking capabilities.

Now imagine, with all these namely - Script, Notation, Svara and technical confusions prevailing, if someone who just know devanagari script keys-in Veda texts in a word processor (data entry operator) and further nobody qualified to cross check and verify - what will be the standard of such a source. The so called Western Sanskrit research students are doing "Research" on these error prone text. Not just that they are producing free flowing translations after translations - which our people take and regurgitate in online forums - pathetic - our so called "jnaana parampara".

They don't know anything about Shikshaa shastra, nor Chandas and can't do Paarayana of one Suuktam - don't know to pronounce even a passage from Vedas properly - these people are the so called Pundits. It takes 5-6 years of Veda-adhyayanam to get the correct pronunciation.

Unless one learns Veda, (to recite) properly one can't pronounce the svaras properly and get the correct meaning.

So for I have only talked of 3 basic Svaras (Udaatta, Anudaatta, Svarita) - Vedas have 10 Svaras. 

Now these Svaras also change according to Paddhati - In Kerala Veda paarayanam follows one kind of Paddhati (SauNaka Paddhati). In Tamil Nadu, Andhra and Karnataka and Southern  Maharashtra another kind of Paddhati (Yaajnavalkya Paddhati) is followed and in the North (mainly UP, Utranchal, Haryana) another kind  of Paddhati (Narayana Paddhati)  is followed, in some pockets there is also Kanva Paddhati is followed. A person who doesn't know this would think that different mantras are chanted when the same mantra is chanted in different paddhati.

Anyway those who are willing to listen will listen and understand that there are numerous issues with respect to Veda-artha nirNaya and don't quote some nonsense left right and center - this is what is blasphemy. If a person who is not a born "Sanaatani" (I avoid the word Hindu). if he/she misquotes Veda I really don't care because they are ignorant. May be I should also don't care about the Mouse-clicking army of pseudo Vedic scholars, who's main guru is Google and Wikipedia. 

I have personally witnessed Veda being misquoted by many of the so called scholars (Ph.D students, Post Doctoral students, Readers and even Professors) from Western universities (even some Indian scholars - who didn't do Veda-adhyayanm from Paatashaalas) while presenting and listening at the recently concluding World Sanskrit conference 2015 in Bangkok.

Comments

  1. To brand everyone as "fools" having no knowledge seems too easy for you to generalize... but that doesn't make any sense when you learn more about them.
    Note that Veda - adhyAyanam is still "shravaNa", "manana" and "ucchAraNa" only, no meaning is taught. Have you heard of svAdhyAya?
    when one is initiated with Vedic knowledge, and studies his shAkha by tradition, he is traditionally allowed to conduct "svAdhyAya".
    I do not understand what kind of scholars you are talking about..., but I understand one thing - you are pre-occupied with certain ideas regarding scholars. How can you generalise them? And weren't there scholars before "Google" and "Wikipedia"?
    And manana has nothing to do with interpretation. Interpretation is different from by-hearting.
    To chant Vedas officially, you have to learn it orally. But to interpret it, an entire different knowledge is the pre-requisite.
    There, your manana won't help you, but you have to have a linguistic, etymological, spiritual, literal, mythological, religious knowledge as pre-requisite.
    Otherwise, all ghanapAThIs could have translated and interpreted Vedas so easily; no Mahidhara, no Sayana, no Dayanand Sarasvati! required!!

    Regarding my credibility, I know from where I have studied my yajuh- shAkhA and how, no need for your kind words. And I have ample Puranic, literal, etymological.... knowledge to interpret Vedas. I am a poet, and I can use that ability in addition too to interpret the beautiful poetry of Rig Veda. I still can't understand how one can interpret Vedas using "Google" and "Wikipedia"!!!! Mouse clicking army!!! Beautiful, but useless imagery.

    And do you think scholars have ignored svaras and paddhatis? How can you say that? Have you read any of their works?
    To judge without knowing... that would be certainly a "great" way for artha niRNaya!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  2. This post is general and not meant for you, you seem like a scholar, so why take it personally - feeling of guilt?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Krishnamurthi CG 
    I did not understand why you were provoked unnecessarily against all the scholars, so I remembered our earlier dialogues, the tone that you said well matched with that. So I said in general about scholars that all scholars are not fools.
    All western scholars have not neglected svaras.
    All western scholars are not biased.
    There may be some, but to generalise these to all is just like branding all Muslims as ISIS.

    ReplyDelete
  4. people keep asking me have you read this in Veda or that in Veda - Veda is not for reading. in Shravana (listen) - Manana (recollect, recite) - Nididhyasana (contemplate) method - there is no place for Patana (reading)

    ReplyDelete
  5. I agree here.  Yes, you can't read Vedas, you can only "study" them. I too have similar experiences.
    People keep asking "where can I read Vedas?".
    :-D

    ReplyDelete
  6. 99% of the Western Vedic meaning is based on Vedic Reader & Vedic Grammar works of Arthur Antony MacDonell - there are many subtle mistakes in this as per Shyama shastri, Vepaturu Subramanya shastri, Varagur Kalyanasundara shastri (teacher of Swami Dayananda who recently passed away), Charudeva shastri (all of them are Mahamahopadyaya, Shastraratnakara and authors of Great treatises - such as Vaagvyavahaara aadarsha, shaabda tarangini, etc.).

    If you go by the Vaidika vyakarana adhyaya of Saraswati KanTabharanam - has over 300 sutras specifically for Veda artha nirnaya based on svara, chandas etc. one can find the subtle mistakes (this many Vedic pundits themselves don't know). This manuscript itself got published in late 20th century. Earlier  people were rejecting our great scholars' views (slave mentality) but after the publication of Vaidikavyakaranam of Saraswati KanTabharanam - people now understand what are the subtle issues. So whoever you're quoting I can confidently say they are wrong - because the moolam (root) or beejam (seed) itself is wrong. This is the reason why western scholars who follow proper Vedic traditions such as Dr. David Frawley and to some extent Dr. Fritz Staal - didn't attempt translation. Staal's expertise is anyway in Braahmana and Yajna and not on other areas like Samhita, Aaranyakam or Upanishad.

    Forget all these thing how can one translate the words such as Rta, Sat, Sattaa, Satyam, Vaidya, dharma, taatparya (this I have explained), bodha, chit, chaitanya, aananda, bhu, vaayu, agni, parjanya, vaak, bhaava, kartha, etc. etc.

    So why translation of these Sanskrit terms ? - aren't you ashamed of diluting the meaning. Why can't some one translated the word "Kung Fu" or the word "Yoga" - these are non-translatables. As you study deeper and deeper even a so called simple word like "vaak" itself can't be translated.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Translating is an art.
    All know that there is no equal for any word in any other language. But, there may be one word that means the same in a context. A proper translator has to use that word, esp. for such a multi-dimensional language as Sanskrit. For Vedas, esp. poetic Rig Veda, I would maximum try to translate the mantras literally, so that the reader can understand what word it could be, and interpret as per his wish.
    Especially, a person who has experienced Rig veda shall understand that the words are not the problem, the imagery and the interpretation is the problematic one.
    To understand that, one must know things apart from linguistic laws. Yea, sometimes, we need to go beyond Sanskrit itself.
    (Read the earlier post of mine, I have discussed a word "sushiprA" that I came across while translating. I could have translated just as "good-nosed" or "good-cheeked" according to tradition as well as the Early western "Indologists", but I found no sense in that.
    So I referred my PIE knowledge to get the words for ancient daughters of Vedic outside India.
    And it worked.
    Sometimes you need to look for etymological differences, like asura as asu-ra rather than a-sura.
    Experience with the Vedic philosophy is the key factor. when one is able to get through the whole Vedas through his method without controversies, then that is the best method.
    Dayanand Sarasvati was able to achieve it.
    I have almost achieved that regarding Rig Veda.
    (I've not translated other Vedas fully, but had to refer them frequently for certain philosophical clarifications and thus effectively, translate them in mind)
    I don't claim that any western scholar deserves the credit for a flawless interpretation. Nor do I say that all scholars of India are wrong. I do not generalize or produce my own figures.
    But those who interpret using their futile historical inventions are as miserable as those who interpret Vedas in terms of sheer puranic and Sanskrit knowledge.
    That's why true unbiased scholar like Dayanand Sarasvati mocked puranas. Even before I read his works (his bhAShyAs and "satyARtha pRakAsha") I too was of the same opinion after reading the Puranas.
    I think you will understand that when you yourself go deep into Puranas, and if you are honest man with no prejudice.

    The reason why I shared Griffith's translation is that he is the only scholar I've seen who adheres to the word and its usage while translating. A literal translation, may be; but to me it is the interpretation that matters.
    The satirical interpretation is the most suitable for frog hymn despite flumsy translations fuelled by both western and Indian scholars. Just type in google, you may get some...
    And Griffith does not, interestingly, interpret it as a satire... I  do not like his interpretations.
    The reason for my satirical interpretation is clear from the fact that Rig Veda uses the same sarcasm in different contexts against ritualists, atheists and agnostics, and answers their every queries.

    Study Veda, you will understand...
    But don't speak of David Frawley... he is one of the frauds I've seen... have you read his actual works on history?

    ReplyDelete
  8. Thanks for the wonderful dialogue. However I thought the words like fool/fraud etc. could have been avoided. Please keep our dialogues straight, and to the point. No mudslinging please. (A humble request)

    Krishnamurthi CG thanks for the enlightening. I could understand for the first time ;)

    KIRON KRISHNAN Please can you elaborate on your comment: "There, your manana won't help you, but you have to have a linguistic, etymological, spiritual, literal, mythological, religious knowledge as pre-requisite."

    I need to understand your statement more. If one is studying through shravana/ucharana, what or how should he plan for learning in next step. Also please elaborate on svadhyaya.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anantha Narayanan 
    By-hearting is the way to learn Vedas, but the by-hearting is not at all a help when it comes to interpretation. That is the context of my statement.
    After learning the svaras and ucchAraNa, anyone is qualified for chanting and teaching Vedas in this age.
    But to interpret the Vedas and to understand it, one needs to have all of the knowledges I have mentioned..

    ReplyDelete
  10. If anyone translating the word "manana" as by-hearting - then that person doesn't know.

    ReplyDelete
  11. but why did a system with just ucharana came into place.

    ReplyDelete
  12. manana means reflection inside mind, not by hearting... Anyone who reads me should understand that.
    And Vedic teaching methodology was primarily to protect the words of Vedas. But that method was exploited by ritualists as a sanction for their rituals. They didn't allow spiritual interpretations of Vedas.
    Even as late as 1350 CE, Sayana was an advocate of cruel animal sacrifices held in the name of Vedas. The SankarAcArya, who is presently much lionized, was also such a person. Mahidhara was also not different.
    Actually, this hiding of actual meaning of Vedas was the reason why Buddhism and Jainism developed in India. Anyone who has read the Buddhist suttas can understand that. To counter these, the theists joined and started the predecessor of modern "Hinduism", demeaning the Vedas, mocking Vedic deities and concepts and incorporating the local "cultures".
    Have anyone of you observed Adivasi customs? Hinduism is more closer to that, than Vedas. In fact, the modern Hinduism is "anti Vedic".
    Let me get the time to post, and I shall enumerate each instances... one by one.
    Then only you people will understand what is your holy Hinduism.
    As Vedic Brahmin, I shall never be a hindu...
    (no offence intended, this is my opinion)
    nor will I support this claim of hindu = vedas.
    In fact, the tantra's roots are interesting... I hope your community avoids obscenity and explicit contents.. and my culture too does not make me post such rubbish... so pseudo scholars can dwell in their paradise.
    Do you know why in earlier ages, there were slaughters in temples?
    Though no scholar will agree with me out of fear, anyone who has been in Vedas knows this "secret".

    ReplyDelete
  13. "But that method was exploited by ritualists as a sanction for their rituals. They didn't allow spiritual interpretations of Vedas." If spiritual interpretations were not allowed, is translation allowed? I am getting an answer which is more or less aligned with Islamic principles, more from you KIRON KRISHNAN . I could be wrong, but you are only praising Vedas and nothing but that. That is where I am getting the effect I mentioned.

    Also I think we must keep in mind, the purpose with which Vedas were revealed, not just for ucharana, or just understanding the meaning. But to lead a life which is more attuned to nature. I have read no Vedas, not interpretations but I think my inference would be right.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anantha Narayanan 
    May be you misunderstood, or may be my lack of skills to present.
    Either way, I have only meant what I have said.
    why did God give us brains? To think, to store and to act. what is the use of knowledge? To learn. what is the use of senses? To use.
    what is the purpose of life? To live.
    These basic answers to the questions I have not found in any religious books except Vedas.
    All other religions seem to be creating stories, myths, infusing their beliefs and creating non-sense.
    Now, just introspect yourself. Just think over what you told. If you are brainwashed by beliefs to such an extent that you can underestimate or neglect the true Vedas, then those brainwashers, don't they deserve a big applause?
    The second part I agree.
    The main moral in Vedas is to live according to rta. Rta is placed above satya. Because satya is defined only through existence (it is subjective, remember our discussion on morals) while rta is Absolute order that is not in our control. If we act against natural order, we will have to suffer their effects. This is the reason why Indra and other Vedic deities are said to help those who "travel by Rta" (rtA yate)
    That is the only thing you want to follow. If you still want to believe without God-given brain and god-incited knowledge, you can do that under your own risk.
    Note that an irrational belief extra is only going to undermine you, though you seem initially it is supporting you. Experiences shall prove.
    I don't know how this is associated with Islamic principle of blind faith. (They are called "believers", our religions do not call their followers as "believers")

    ReplyDelete
  15. Ok, maybe I misinterpreted the believers. I thought this because of some statements. This could have been avoided, as it is not central to the point of what does Vedas say to us. 

    "Even as late as 1350 CE, Sayana was an advocate of cruel animal sacrifices held in the name of Vedas. The SankarAcArya, who is presently much lionized, was also such a person. Mahidhara was also not different." -> Statements like these make us think away from Vedas. Sankara/Sayana or whoever it might be, considering their times when they lived, they have contributed towards. Maybe we are not understanding what their teachings are. 

    You are right in saying Buddism/Jainism evolved due to the over usage of rituals in that period. But did not Sankara caused a revival to think towards the same goal?

    ReplyDelete
  16. If Sayana was a mere local pundit, and if he was not revered as the "only good commentator", then I would have ignored. I give the full blame to his time, not him. But the modern hindus instigated by fact resistance, just argue that Sayana was the greatest commentator, (which I agree) and that his interpretations are to be swallowed as such. (which I won't agree) In fact, most of the translations of "Indologists" are based on his works. (Take any translation of western scholars, and you shall see Sayana's views expressed in English)
    Some Indian scholars too have did the same.
    But people like Dayanand Sarasvati thought beyond blind faiths, and he himself broke the traditions to meet the Vedas in their original form.
    Read his books, you will then understand what I say.
    And what Sayana has did is commentary in Sanskrit, it is not a poem. So, just look his interpretations of yajna. You will understand what I say.
    I shall speak nothing here about Sankara or Ramanuja or Madhva or... really sorry....
    In that case, please leave me.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I mentioned that because instead of the message you are writing hitting the point, the diversion takes away the credit. That was what I intend to communicate.

    ReplyDelete

Post a Comment

Popular posts from this blog

Thanks to Dr.