The frog hymn!
The frog hymn!
Translation : Griffith. (I shall do it later)
One can interpret this literary translation by closer analysis.
The Brahmins are mocked as "frogs" and the whole poem compares "holy two frogs" with the "guru Brahmin and the muttering student".
There are several other instances of sarcasm towards sheer ritualism.
Originally shared by Lord Indra
Frogs as Brahmins or Brahmins as frogs?
Rig Veda 7.103
1. They who lay quiet for a year, the Brahmans who fulfil their vows,
The Frogs have lifted up their voice, the voice Parjanya has inspired.
2 What time on these, as on a dry skin lying in the pool's bed, the floods of heaven descended,
The music of the Frogs comes forth in concert like the cows lowing with their calves beside them.
3 When at the coming of the Rains the water has poured upon them as they yearned and thirsted,
One seeks another as he talks and greets him with cries of pleasure as a son his father.
4 Each of these twain receives the other kindly, while they are revelling in the flow of waters,
When the Frog moistened by the rain springs forward, and Green and Spotty both combine their voices.
5 When one of these repeats the other's language, as he who learns the lesson of the teacher,
Your every limb seems to be growing larger as ye converse with eloquence on the waters.
6 Onc is Cow-bellow and Goat-bleat the other, one Frog is Green and one of them is Spotty.
They bear one common name, and yet they vary, and, talking, modulate the voice diversely.
7 As Brahmans, sitting round the brimful vessel, talk at the Soma-rite of Atiratra,
So, Frogs, ye gather round the pool to honour this day of all the year, the first of Rain-time.
8 These Brahmans with the Soma juice, performing their year-long rite, have lifted up their voices;
And these Adhvaryus, sweating with their kettles, come forth and show themselves, and none are hidden.
9 They keep the twelve month's God-appointed order, and never do the men neglect the season.
Soon as the Rain-time in the year returneth, these who were heated kettles gain their freedom.
10 Cow-bellow and Goat-bleat have granted riches, and Green and Spotty have vouchsafed us treasure.
The Frogs who give us cows in hundreds lengthen our lives in this most fertilizing season.
(Trans : Griffith)
The hymn is a pathetic mock on the ritualist Brahmins who are simply like the frogs, croaking in the monsoon season. Further, the methodology of Srauta learning by muttering is criticized as "frogs that imitate each other's sounds". This clearly shows the Vedic mainstream thinking about the ritualists. In Yajur Veda, we shall realize that the intention was not to prescribe rituals, but to make the existing rituals symbolic.
Rituals such as "Ashvamedha" originated only in late Rig Vedic period. The Rig Vedic spiritual seers, went to symbolise that too as a cosmic sacrifice that only "king of the whole world" can perform in the "centre of the world". The hymn 1.164, that succeeds the horse sacrifice, is an ecstatic overflow of pure words, that are known to be the most obscure verses of Rig Veda.
KIRON KRISHNAN
Also we can discuss those atheist Vs theists instances... that would be a new stuff for the readers.
Translation : Griffith. (I shall do it later)
One can interpret this literary translation by closer analysis.
The Brahmins are mocked as "frogs" and the whole poem compares "holy two frogs" with the "guru Brahmin and the muttering student".
There are several other instances of sarcasm towards sheer ritualism.
Originally shared by Lord Indra
Frogs as Brahmins or Brahmins as frogs?
Rig Veda 7.103
1. They who lay quiet for a year, the Brahmans who fulfil their vows,
The Frogs have lifted up their voice, the voice Parjanya has inspired.
2 What time on these, as on a dry skin lying in the pool's bed, the floods of heaven descended,
The music of the Frogs comes forth in concert like the cows lowing with their calves beside them.
3 When at the coming of the Rains the water has poured upon them as they yearned and thirsted,
One seeks another as he talks and greets him with cries of pleasure as a son his father.
4 Each of these twain receives the other kindly, while they are revelling in the flow of waters,
When the Frog moistened by the rain springs forward, and Green and Spotty both combine their voices.
5 When one of these repeats the other's language, as he who learns the lesson of the teacher,
Your every limb seems to be growing larger as ye converse with eloquence on the waters.
6 Onc is Cow-bellow and Goat-bleat the other, one Frog is Green and one of them is Spotty.
They bear one common name, and yet they vary, and, talking, modulate the voice diversely.
7 As Brahmans, sitting round the brimful vessel, talk at the Soma-rite of Atiratra,
So, Frogs, ye gather round the pool to honour this day of all the year, the first of Rain-time.
8 These Brahmans with the Soma juice, performing their year-long rite, have lifted up their voices;
And these Adhvaryus, sweating with their kettles, come forth and show themselves, and none are hidden.
9 They keep the twelve month's God-appointed order, and never do the men neglect the season.
Soon as the Rain-time in the year returneth, these who were heated kettles gain their freedom.
10 Cow-bellow and Goat-bleat have granted riches, and Green and Spotty have vouchsafed us treasure.
The Frogs who give us cows in hundreds lengthen our lives in this most fertilizing season.
(Trans : Griffith)
The hymn is a pathetic mock on the ritualist Brahmins who are simply like the frogs, croaking in the monsoon season. Further, the methodology of Srauta learning by muttering is criticized as "frogs that imitate each other's sounds". This clearly shows the Vedic mainstream thinking about the ritualists. In Yajur Veda, we shall realize that the intention was not to prescribe rituals, but to make the existing rituals symbolic.
Rituals such as "Ashvamedha" originated only in late Rig Vedic period. The Rig Vedic spiritual seers, went to symbolise that too as a cosmic sacrifice that only "king of the whole world" can perform in the "centre of the world". The hymn 1.164, that succeeds the horse sacrifice, is an ecstatic overflow of pure words, that are known to be the most obscure verses of Rig Veda.
KIRON KRISHNAN
Also we can discuss those atheist Vs theists instances... that would be a new stuff for the readers.
Thanks for the share
ReplyDeleteNot only brahmins, now a days everyone is just blindly following others. Take for instance how one prays in a temple. If someone ahead touches the door or steps before entering the temple, the practice is taken care by those who follow. Majority of people don't know how to pray, and fail to understand that the force to move oneself is within.
ReplyDeleteYes, there are many such sarcasms in Vedas itself.
ReplyDeleteFor example, the cult of Soma plant came later in Rig Veda. It was characterized by the search for the fictitious poetic expression of immortality in the real world. This was a crazy alchemy going on by Late Rig Vedic period, and continued in the ritualist ages.
This is also mocked in Vedas, yeah, in Rig Veda itself :
(10.85.3)
" One thinks he has drunk soma when the plant is brayed;
None has actually tasted it - the soma which sages know"
This was a direct attack on ritualists.
There are even more verses that condemn the sheer ritualists, but the poor Vedic sages had no voice over the more populous ritualist masses.
For the mass srautins, Veda meant belief and rituals, while for the sages, it was a guide to knowledge.
Even Yajur Veda, the alleged "ritual Veda" makes interesting remarks.
Though the symbolisms were preserved in later Brahmanas, the ritual part was re-emphasized, making symbols as valid agreements for conducting rituals.
Supreme is Indra over all. That's all.
Is there any verse in any Veda which signifies the importance of reasoning as opposed to blind following?
ReplyDeleteFoolish translation - a metaphor is not properly explained. If you follow George's or any other half cooked translation this is what happens.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing wrong with Frog or Manduka as it is used in this context in-lieu of a higher concept.
1. There was a Vedic Rishi known as Manduka - there is also a Upanishad called as Maandukya Upanishad (The Atharva veda Upanishad) This contains the essence of "Om" or "Aum" - when in Ramayana when Sri. Rama asked Sri. Hanuman (Hanuman was a Nava-vyakarana-vettaa) among all which Upanishad is ideal - the answer came from Sri. Hanuman as Maandukyam
2. Adi Shankaracharya's Guru's Guru Sri. Gaudapadacharya has written a Kaarika for Mandukya Upanishad.
3. There is a Swara known as Manduka pluta (frog's tone)
This kind of surface level foolishness has to be stopped. Unless one is well versed in Shiksha, Chandas, Nirukta and Vyakarana (Mastery in the first 2 comes based only on PaaraayaNa or recitation) and only when a person studies upto Ghana PaaTha, in addition to gaining mastery over Nyaya and Mimamsa - he is eligible to translate Veda. Even then there are many poorvapaksha - uttarapaksha - vaada /prativaada (logical debates). Read my earlier posts in this regard. We Indian should read SaayaNaacharya's commentary on Vedas and debate - else it is like a blindman leading a bunch of blindmen
Krishnamurthi CG
ReplyDeleteBut none of your "mandukas" shall croak in rainy season.
I have checked the translation before I asked Lord Indra to produce it.
Except for invasionist passages that he explains in footnote, Griffith's literal translation is pardonable compared to other "Indologists", at least in this type of direct poems.
Afterall, a translation should not change the tone of poem.
But I do not agree with literal interpretation.
Did you check Sayana bhashya?
The hymn is explicitly about the tropical rainy season, and is beautiful satire, as many other Vedic mantras are.
Have you at least read those mantras?
To dismiss something as foolish is easy, to accept it requires knowledge.
Sayana is as much qualified as present Indologists, because he was writing about Vedas of millennia old.
And his commentary is often based on myths drawn from Brahmanas.
Vedas are much more.
As long as you try to see Vedas by closing your eyes, it is even worse than a blind person.
And who is your George ?
Before getting down to condemn others, please be at least bothered about their names, even if you don't know their works.
And do not presume me. This is internet. I can be the father of my son too, or any other person who knows the password of google.
Anantha Narayanan
ReplyDeleteThere are always such passages.
I shall produce some famous instances that support reasoning.
First of all, Vedas, esp. Rig Veda, is ignorant about atheists, since they are people who disbelieve for granted. It also mocks people who believe for granted.
God is approachable only through knowledge. This is covered in many of the Rig Vedic mantras, esp. in First hymn.
And things like sorcery are explicitly shunned.
Check out the translations (and check interpretations too, to know how should be the literal thing interpreted) in The Vedas community.
In many hymns, Rig Veda shows how atheistic arguments are defeated.
Have you read Nasadiya sukta in the other community? I had translated it.
Or you can get that in my profile (I think I have changed the visibility of posts yesterday)
Also go through Hiranyagarbha hymn.
These verses are the best examples for reaching theism though agnosticism rather than blind faith or simply disbelieving as in atheism.
Or, I shall share them over here.
KIRON KRISHNAN
ReplyDeleteThe hymn of frog did have much impact on later religion, esp. when people started ritualising this too.
The period of samvatsara mentioned in the hymn could be ten months, (not an year) and may correspond to the later myth (earlier poetic imagery) of cloud bearing rain child for 10 months. (There are such mentions in Kau. Brah and Shata. Brah)
As for ritualisers, we have had plenty of them.
Even Ashva medha is symbolised in Yajur Veda, which the later people ignored.
I should say that Sayana, the Brahmanas were all sheer supporters of those cruel rituals. They lacked heart.
After all, Indians are like this. Then how can the foreign Indologists be blamed?
Such people who glorify the ritualistic Brahmanas and Sayana should at least once go through them.
ReplyDeleteI am sure, if one has heart, his will certainly break on seeing the way rituals are performed.
Do you know, Lord Indra, how many animals were killed for an Ashva medha?
And Veda didn't sanction that as a rite, but rather tried to symbolise it.
But Brahmanas tried to reverse the situation and made the symbolism as an argument for performing the cruel rite.
Any one who goes through the "AshvAgni sUkta" of Rig Veda (1.163) shall realize it.
For those who deliberately close their eyes, or do not care to be misled, I have no words to say.
Lord Indra, I ask you apology if you are hurt by any of the incidents over here.
I shouldn't have reshared your post here, it seems. Really sorry.
KIRON KRISHNAN
ReplyDeleteNo issues.
Please don't hesitate to reshare my posts whenever you feel appropriate.
I trust you.
As for people, leave them. Let them move their way. Hey, cheer up... don't we know the Truth?
"For Indra's sake", please don't be hurt.
I am not at all hurt.
Krishnamurthi CG
ReplyDeleteReally pathetic that you didn't even attend to the name of the translator before saying something.
None of us two advocate pure literal interpretation of Vedas, as your Acharyas or Brahmanas have done so far.
Have you read at least one translation of Griffith? Or have you gone through Brahmanas? Or Sayana's commentary? Or Mahidhara? Or Nirukta?
If you have, then this is the time you should realise that what you have learnt is not conclusively applicable to Vedas.
To learn Vedas, one must think beyond puranas, rituals, tantra and religion.
To understand it, not only mere philology, but knowledge of comparative philology is essential. Sometimes you have to even study about ancient Indo European cultures and their practices, and ancient practices of Indian soil.
Sheer linguistics is not going to make you reach anywhere around the vicinity of Holy Vedas. Vedas are much more than you expect them to be.
And none here says that Brahmin varna is spoken of as frogs.
Every varna is respected.
It is "the Brahmins who talk around the atirAtRa" that are spoken of in the poem.
Muttering of Vedas as the best way to learn is not sanctioned anywhere in the Vedas.
If you know one, you can produce it here.
I don't care about other translations except for SaayaNaacharyas. If you want to quote - then quote सूक्त, मण्डल and the corresponding सायणभाष्य in Sanskrit. Also I don't worry so much about Purana etc. As I had posted earlier Puranas are for deeper understanding at a personal level and not for Logical debates. Personally I don't care for such translation (कृतिः) and when I don't care for that itself should I care for the translator (कर्ता) - because कृतिः is after all कर्तृत्वशक्तिः - यदि कर्ता षडङ्गसहितघनपाठी पदवाक्यप्रमाणज्ञः च न स्यात् तर्हि कथं तस्य व्याख्यानं सप्रमाणकं भवेत् । Thus I don't care - on the personal side I am not so much of a पौराणिकः or ऐदिह्यज्ञः so when commenting about Veda - lets debate in the language of Veda - Sanskrit. This playing with empty words like a management consultant will not work.
ReplyDeleteI don't care what you should be bothered about which I write. Krishnamurthi CG
ReplyDeleteSo, don't care....
I write for knowledge seekers, not for a debate club. And I encourage healthy debates, but don't have the capability to stand for a biased debate, with no equality.
Still, as you say, I am going to write the Sayana bhashya of the forthcoming hymns.
Then only you will realize what is what.
Aitihasikas can never claim to touch the words of Vedas. Nor can sAmpradAyika school claim, because all of their translations have found controversies and divergence in the coherent Vedas, which itself proves their inefficacy.
In science, when you are contradicted, you are required to refine your method. This is also what taRka shAstRa tells us.
So, I have refined the methods, so that coherency is re-established in Vedas.
These schools have controversies according to whom ? Not by traditional Vedic pundits, but by people with hidden agenda who distorted the subtle meanings very subtly and very cleverly. If you want to quote those translations in English language – no problem for me. 1000s have distorted directly and indirectly by quoting them. One more person will not do any extra damage as it is already damaged enough and we've lost many paramparas. But my sources – if I have doubt on Vedaartha then I'd not rely on translations – particularly none in English. I also don't pickup SaayaNacharyas commentary just like that, instead I seek Mahamahipadyaya Sriman Krishnamurthi Sastrigal or Sriman Mani Dravid Sastrigal, etc. These pundits are recognized as Veda artha experts by Sringeri Mutt, Kanchi Mutt, Ujjain Vedic University, Veda-shastra patashaalas in Thenali, Rajamandri, etc. I used to also consult Sriman KPC Anujan Bhattatirupad earlier. Anyway you're free to share (including cut and copy) from some source with distorted translation. I will do my job of commenting where ever the shortcomings are found in translations depending on my time availability.
ReplyDeleteI feel this debate is taking a different turn. The bhaashyaas for vedas what we today is much distorted, in my opinion. every thinker/philosopher has interpreted it according to his school of thought like vaishnavas, shaivaites,. And there may be distortions also in these versions. Probably no one has accumulated the different versions at one place, I feel.
ReplyDeleteI feel even Ashwamedha is a distorted addition in rigveda. When we proclaim , as per vedas " SARVEJANAAH SUKHINO BHAVANTHU..SARVE SANTHU NIRAAMAYAA.. " LET ALL THE LIVING BEINGS, VEGITATIONS, EVRYONE BE HAPPY AS LONG ONE LIVES.......
There cannot be any reference to sacrifice the animals during yaagas.
It may be only PRAKSHIPTA by some one who wants to show vedas too relate to sacrifice of animals
continued...... and to degrade hindu scriptures to insult hindu culture...
ReplyDeleteGopalaKrishna pv
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, it is the Hindus who themselves have done this.
I shall consider a better interpretation of Vedas that of Swami Dayanand Sarasvati, perhaps better than Sayana or Mahidhara.